Both stories this week are love stories of a sort. They're also the first straight third person fiction we've read this term. Did you notice? What does third person do that a first person story can't? What strengths does it have, what weaknesses? In what ways is it suited to speak about love affairs (and difficulties)? Are these third person limited omniscient stories? If so, who is the pov limited to?
"Mastiff":
Several of you have pointed out the visual nature of this story, especially the dog attack (261-262). How is the violence of this story different than the violence we discussed in "Kattekoppen" last week? Read the author bio at the back of the book. It seems that this is an autobiographical story. Joyce Carol Oates is a famous fiction writer and essayist. If this is based on a true story, why not tell it as an essay instead of fiction? Why tell a true story in fiction at all?
"The Judge's Will":
How is the tone of this story different or similar to "Mastiff"? How would the story be different if it were told in first person, from Binny's pov or the judge's or Yasi's or Thul's? Why is the story called "The Judge's Will"? Why is it significant that he is a judge? We never see him in the court room. He could just as easily be a businessman or a professor. Why a judge? What is the significance of Freud? (p. 184)
As far as visual effects go, I believe that we feel stronger with the visuals depicted in "Mastiff" because its a scene that we can see happening to one of us or it being something that has happened to some of us. In Kattopopen there's a lower probability that some of us has witnessed the scene depicted or will go through the same situation
ReplyDeleteI did not notice that the stories were 3rd person. Maybe that's why I didn't like them. I thought they were very boring. Perhaps I didn't like them because they were love stories, I'm not to crazy about love stories. "Mastiff" had a limited omniscience 3rd person narrator, It was limited to what the women say or felt. I honestly felt bad for the judge, I thought Binny was so annoying.
ReplyDeleteI always say that there are 3 sides to every love story, or any story for that matter: one person's side, the other person's side, and what really happened. A third person narrative is that "what really happened voice". It gives you a completely objective view on the story line, but this is it's weakness as well as it's strength. You don't really get first hand how the characters are feeling. However, when it comes to love affair stories, I think that a third person narrative works better than a first person. For example: if you are reading a story about a man and his wife getting into an argument in first person from the husband's point of view, the story will probably make the wife out to be a crazy, naggy woman, and vice versa. If the story is written in third person, then you get what each character wants, what the argument was, and if it was resolved or not; it is unbiased.
ReplyDeleteThe Judge's will is similar to mastiff because it uses a traumatic event to optimize love. In Mastiff after the guy saved the girl then she fell for him when she wasn't so interested at first in the judge's will the judge notice his wife's strength after the situation of his mistress that she step in for her son so he wouldn't get sick. I think if the story were told in first person we would of probably have got different perspectives of what was going on. I think it's significant that he is a judge because maybe it gives us an idea of his status and the amount of money. I think it was called the judge's will because both woman seem to care about it. At first Binny didn't want Phul to have anything but Phul was scared she will be left nothing asnd included in the will the judge made his son promise to help take care of Phul.. I take "Freud" as an insult not sure what it means in its entirety
ReplyDeleteWhen reading these stories, I hadn't noticed that they were told in third person. I'm usually good at figuring out if a story is told in their first, second or third person. Third person narratives are focused on telling the story in using "he"or "she", whereas in a first person story, the author tells the story mostly using "I" or " me".
ReplyDeleteWhen reading a Judge's Will, I realized that their were some similarities with the short story "Mastiff". The two protagonist in the story are both similar and different in various ways. In Mastiff the protagonist shows that she cares for the man, especially when he gets attacked by that dog. I wouldn't say she wears her heart on her sleeve, but I can say that she deeply cares for someone who may or may not feel the same way about her. In the Judge's Will, the wife learns of her husband's infidelity. He had a mistress locked away for about 25 years, which really tore their family apart. I also realized that whenever the husband and wife would argue they would bring their son into it as well. Almost as if he should chose a side or not. I think he is referred to as the " Judge" because he is the superior male in the household and he is the one who make's all of the decisions.
Like first person, third person also has a protagonist. The difference between the two is being able to trust the narrator in third person (assuming one of the other characters aren't narrating). Also, third person stories give you the ability to see more clearly what other characters, besides the protagonist, are doing. In the third person, there are significantly less usages of "I" to the point where it can only be seen within quotations.
ReplyDeleteA third person story can tell multiple point of views if omniscient where the narrator knows what all the characters are talking about.While a first person story can only tell the point of view of a single character in the story, usually the protagonist. The strength a third person story is you get more information out of how the character(s)in the story are feeling, their motives, etc. The weakness of a third person story is you have all these different people/characters with these different perspectives/outlooks that you have to puzzle everything together in order for the story to make sense. Third person stories are suited to love affairs and difficulties because it's the pov of an outsider looking in.
ReplyDeleteThe visual in Mastiff was something that we all can relate to. Being attacked by a dog vs being in a battle field.
ReplyDeleteThe tone in Mastiff was more of a non nonchalant because it was two people hiking but in Judges Will it was a lot going on so different situations called for different tone of voice.
I think it was called the Judges Will because he is a judge who obviously is sick so doesn't go into court just stays in the house. It is significant to me because he knows the laws and what can be fought out at the end and what can be revised after his death. Maybe the significance of Freud is because the attachment one has to parent or child.
I think a third person story makes you more objective than subjective when reading the story. I think third person also makes you look at all the characters overall than just pinning/focusing on just one character. One weakness is that you don't connect to the character as much as you would in first person because you do not put yourself in the characters' shoes.
ReplyDeleteI think Joyce Carol Oates chose to write is as a fiction instead of an essay because she did not use every bit of information or either fiction allows you to exaggerate and is also structured differently than an essay. Kattekoppen's violence had to do more with the military, which I feel a soldier would be able to relate to and would feel that the violence scenes were great. However, for someone that had never watched a military based film or been a soldier is quite difficult to visualize such things. Mastiff was in a setting i'm sure most have been in before and also used an attacker(the dog) that we are mostly used to being attacked from.
I think the tone of Mastiff is different from The judge's will in that Mastiff did not go into so much detail with its characters. The characters were depersonalized. They weren't given names. They were just called the woman and man hikers. The judge's will on the other hand gave each character a name and also gave some background information for each character and tied it all together. Even thought the story was told in third person point of view, at time i read it through Binny's point of view. I felt like she was what was holding everyone together.
The story " The judges mill' story would be different if it were told in the first person because it would give emotions associated to one person, The view of the story would be shifted through experiences and feelings of one person. I believe if the story was wrote in binny's point of view she would portray herself as more of the victim, not really giving herself equal blame as to why her husband had a secret mistress behind her back for 25 years. If the story was wrote in Yasi's view I think that he would share how the conflicts between his parents have effected him and we would be able to better observe more in depth how yasi has felt all these watching his parents marriage take a negative turn. I think the story is called the judge's mill because he was dying and now it was time for the truth to come out. I think judges will important because now that he was dying, his secret was finally being exposed. I could be wrong but I think he was made to be a judge for a ironic reason because judges are expected to be honest and always tell the truth, but in contrast this judge was the opposite when it came to his family. He kept a hidden secret from his family for 25 years...
ReplyDeleteI did notice that both stories had first and third person point of views. In some parts of the story there's dialogue and then it switches back to third person. In third person point of view stories, it gives a reader a chance to see the characters from a different perspective. In a first person point of view, us readers look at a situation in a story through the main character's point of view. It also give us an idea about the character, but one weakness is that it can be limited to the main character.
ReplyDeletemasiff i felt it was perfect in the form of a fiction because it mad me visualize everything as it was happening and it would be too violent with the dog biting it would take away from the true version of a love story because of is graphic imagery. the kattekoppen story is a different type of violence this violence we would not be around to actual see these things taking place.
ReplyDeletethe judge is similar because its carries the same tone of love for another person and i think naming the story the judge describe the story great because no one person has the say in the final decision. f the story was told in a first person story it would take away from the tramatic event that...
When you tell a third person story, it becomes less biased compared to the telling of a first person story because with first person, the narrator always sees something a certain way (be it clouded or subjective). It's like we'll be able to see events unravel by observing them through a clear glass (third person), rather than using a dirty, muddied up glass (first person). To speak about love affairs (and difficulties) though, it is indeed better to use third person. That is because we can see and understand the actions of the individuals in love rather than seeing everything through thick rose-colored glasses from the first person's pov.
ReplyDeleteIf "The Judge's Will" were to be told in first person, it would change drastically because we would be seeing the world as how the narrator sees things, meaning that events would be misunderstood or even falsely remembered. It wouldn't be the same anymore. The significance and mention of Freud has to do with a sexual desire hidden in the unconscious in the human brain...
the tone from "the judges will" is similar to "Mastiff" in the way that theyre both love stories in a different kind of way. in "the judges will" its about a hidden love coming to light because of the probable death of a character in the story.(hidden as in no one knew about it). in "mastiff," its a love story in the way that this companionship between the male and the female in the story is sort of her last chance at love. the woman doesnt even think shes in love but the males heroics, and the fact that he almost dies, made her change her view on him. ...
ReplyDeleteWhen reading these stories, I hadn't noticed that they were told in third person. I'm usually good at figuring out if a story is told in their first, second or third person. Third person narratives are focused on telling the story in using "he"or "she", whereas in a first person story, the author tells the story mostly using "I" or " me".
ReplyDeleteWhen reading a Judge's Will, I realized that their were some similarities with the short story "Mastiff". The two protagonist in the story are both similar and different in various ways. In Mastiff the protagonist shows that she cares for the man, especially when he gets attacked by that dog. I wouldn't say she wears her heart on her sleeve, but I can say that she deeply cares for someone who may or may not feel the same way about her. In the Judge's Will, the wife learns of her husband's infidelity. He had a mistress locked away for about 25 years, which really tore their family apart. I also realized that whenever the husband and wife would argue they would bring their son into it as well. Almost as if he should chose a side or not. I think he is referred to as the " Judge" because he is the superior male in the household and he is the one who make's all of the decisions.